Curse

Kanyatta · Feb 12, 2008, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Now there is more variety? Which variety was before? Raven staves and... hm... raven staves and them.. hum... raven staves?

You obviously haven't been playing very long if that's what you think.

Basically, perfect weapons were rare back in the good ol' days. Now they're just too insanely common, and now everyone has one, because they're cheap, and now no one wants them, because everyone has one.

Basically, you need to learn Supply & Demand, because inscriptions destroyed a finely-functioning weapons market that we had in Proph + Factions.

You can't really call me an elitist, because I've never had more than 40k at once, and I only had one perfect weapon... ever, before inscriptions, that is. I just know that times were better back then.

Undivine · Feb 12, 2008, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanyatta

You obviously haven't been playing very long if that's what you think.

Basically, perfect weapons were rare back in the good ol' days. Now they're just too insanely common, and now everyone has one, because they're cheap, and now no one wants them, because everyone has one.

Basically, you need to learn Supply & Demand, because inscriptions destroyed a finely-functioning weapons market that we had in Proph + Factions.

You can't really call me an elitist, because I've never had more than 40k at once, and I only had one perfect weapon... ever, before inscriptions, that is. I just know that times were better back then.

You have a different view of the "good ol' days" than the rest of us then. Everyone having easy access to perfect weapons is a good thing. Each person has to put a bit of effort into getting their perfect weapon, but it's not determined by blind luck, and it's not unreasonably expensive.

The good ol' days were good for various reasons, but the weapon price wars were not one of them.

Hyper Cutter · Feb 12, 2008, 03:28 AM // 03:28

I'm still not actually sure why you can't use shield handles, focus cores, and wand wrappings on Tyrian and Canthan items...

Yawgmoth · Feb 12, 2008, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Everyone having *waaay too easy* access for perfect stuff is bad. It totally kills the fun of finding something good yourself.

I'm having way more fun playing Prophecies and Factions with a chance of finding something truly rare or even unique than playing Nightfall and knowing all I will get will be LAME.

If you don't want expensive stuff just buy the cheap inscribables that are overfarmed everywhere else, but leave us the ability to FIND something cool rare and expensive, don't touch my favorite old games.

I repeat that again, to all greedy but lazy, PvE doesn't need perfect weapons at all! GW is NOT a game about grinding for next 'tiers' of gear to be competetive and accepted in pugs and to progress in game. The difference in performance of a character using dirt cheap Purples and one using perfect gear is less than 1% - all that matters is player skill, skillbar, teamwork and imba consumables. And the difference between superexpensive vanity items and common but perfect gear is ZERO. You DON'T NEED perfects to play and if you want you can choose from a huge list of ones that are supercheap.
There's nothing wrong with having a small bunch of weapon skins still worth something.

The game was a great fun in the old days when no greens and no locked chests existed, when getting any gold was a woot moment. Now, when the best drop is just as good as any random drop it's just meh, pfft, lame.

MithranArkanere · Feb 12, 2008, 12:02 PM // 12:02

Oh. No. Everyone having 'faster' (NOT easier) access to perfect weapons is good.

We already have collectors. Should we remove collectors? Oh... that allows players to have perfect weapons easier... we should remove them, then.
And crafters! A perfect weapon just for 5..10k and some materials? Wow...

In Factions, Nightfall and EotN it's a bit harder to find 'farmable' mobs, because groups are more heterogeneous. There are much less bunches of 30 enemies exactly the same (there are still, but just less), not like in Prophecies, where you can find a lot of Hydras, Trolls, Drakes or Minotaurs and aggro them all. Yet, although it's a bit harder to farm heterogeneous groups, people still managed to get builds to farm those, forgetting about Prophecies and Factions mobs. Why? Because people want inscribed weapons.

Clinging to and ould outdated and depreceated system that do not match the GW philosophy like inscription does, it's like pretending everyone to use Trains because you don't like Planes, because there are 'too fast'.

All the arguments I see here area against inscriptions. But inscriptions are already added. This is not a post suggesting to add inscriptions. It's a post that suggest to remove the existing illogical difference between campaigns.

Again, I must commit those that do not like inscriptions to open their own post asking about the inscription removal, and do not come where complaining about how inscriptions are bad and should not be added, when they have been already added.

Now... there's nothing wrong to have a bunch of skins worth something?
So... which skins can't be found inscribed? It's not like after the release of Nightfall, when Factions unique skins where still unique and never inscribed. Now all skins can be found inscribed. And Prophecies has lost most of his unique skins, they have become 'core' by dropping in all campaigns.
Bu even if you can find all skins inscribed already, that's not the problem. The thing it's the difference between playing in one region and another.

The game was much more boring in those old days when no greens and no locked chests existed, when getting any gold was a 'woot' moment. Now, when you play in Prophecies or factions and you never see an usable drop unless you mindlessly kill and kill for months, it's horrible compared to Nightfall and EotN, where you can just play normally and can use the things you find without farming.

You said it, Yawgmoth:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

[...] GW is NOT a game about grinding for next 'tiers' of gear...[...]

Yeah, it's not. So why you are so much against inscriptions? Because they completely remove the 'grind for the gear you like'?

So far, the reasons against inscriptions worldwide are:
- "Because I like the old times better". But... old times are that. Old times. The game goes on, and you can't live in the past. Anyways, they have been already added. You hate, them? Sorry, the damage is done. Now there's an inequitableness between campaigns to be fixed, and sice inscriptions will NOT be removed from the new campaigns, only adding them to the old ones is left. And they have already started to do so with end-mission chests... but that's not enough. The job must be finished.
- "Because my items devalue/lose rarity/whatever". That's not a reason and you already know why. No need to explain. The Zaishen chest it's a good explanation without any words.
- "Because I hate inscriptions". Well... they are already here and they will staty. It's better to get used to that.
- "Because inscriptions make rare skins common". That's a lie and you know that. The inhenrent modifiers are the ones artificially altering the rarity of skins. An elemental sword it's rare even with inscriptions, and Shortbow will never be a rare skin, but it's much more rare to find one with decent stats in Prophecies and Factions.
- "Because makes way too easy to get stuff". Even if that where true, that is not, that would never be something bad. With the old system a single player without trading could have to spend more than a year to get a certain drop. With inscriptions, a single player may get something in less than a quarter. With the current flawed and slow trading system, forcing someone to trade it's a mistake, and on top of that, someone that try to get things by trading depends on other selling them, so if you are looking for a certain modifier that people usually never save to sell, you will never be able to find it. And 'you will never be able to' it's one of the things Anet has trying to remove from the game.

Inscriptions worldwide, weapon upgrade traders and the Zunlai Market being real. That would completely fix the things. Not going back to the past. The past it's something to learn from, and Anet did so, so they added inscriptions.
Now it's time to go forward and to the next step: Inscriptions worldwide.

Just think about it and you'll see that can't be in any other way.

seut · Feb 12, 2008, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

The game was a great fun in the old days when no greens and no locked chests existed, when getting any gold was a woot moment. Now, when the best drop is just as good as any random drop it's just meh, pfft, lame.

Locked strongboxes existed in the Southern Shiverpeaks on release. Though Dwarven keys were obtainable by drop only. Those were removed after a few weeks.

And for golds being rare.. the doppleganger dropped a rare everytime you beat him in bonus time.. many people farmed him for unlocks and merched the items without even looking at their stats (before Balthazar Faction was implemented).
I unlocked most of my Runes by farming Twin Serpent Lakes Tengu.

Your "good old days" started a month after release, when the first nerfs to drops were introduced (no more locked strongboxes, doppleganger not dropping stuff, Mesmers added to Tengu & White Mantle groups, removal of the Arid Sea chest).

The real "good old days" right after release were different from what you remember.

That inscriptions killed rarity is a misconception. Dead Sword were rare and sold for high price until farmers found an exploitable quest. Colossal Scimitars and Elemental Swords were rare until the introduction of Hardmode.

Farmers & Hardmode killed the rarity market not inscriptions!

Cebe · Feb 12, 2008, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Poll Added .

MithranArkanere · Feb 12, 2008, 06:29 PM // 18:29

There is a fifth possible option: Inscription coexisting with inherent drops.
I'd go for inscriptions only, but both kind of drops tghether would still be better than having such radical differences between campaigns.

Kanyatta · Feb 13, 2008, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Oh. No. Everyone having 'faster' (NOT easier) access to perfect weapons is good.

Will you please give up on the God damned "But it be faster!!!!!!" argument. You have lost that one 50x over.

What you're lobbying for is "easier", because the facts are, it is HARDER to get a perfect inherent mod w/o inscriptions, thus meaning it is EASIER w/inscriptions.

Basically, the general consensus of the community is no, inscriptions are not good for the game.

Game. Set. Match.

Yawgmoth · Feb 13, 2008, 04:18 AM // 04:18

wow what a terrible pointless poll.

Of course "All drops across all campaigns should NOT be inscribable." - the whole inscription system was completely not needed for PvE, it was the single worst thing Anet has done to GW, it beats loot scaling and every single unnecessary nerf that happened, it's even worse than the new "Victory is Ours" thing that happened to GvG...

But it's too late. A change back is impossible at this point, the massive damage done cannot be undone. At this point changing the drops in Nightfall and EotN to Non-inscribable would be AS BAD as changing Prophecies and Factions to inscribables! Each case would cause a massive part of the player base to get hurt, each case would be taking away from them something they enjoyed.

So I voted "No change should occur; those campaigns without inscribable drops should remain so."

Both systems CAN coexist and there are multiple benefits for everyone, for every type of player from having those 2 working systems in place:

**There are huge loads of incredibly cheap stuff, cheap and easily accessible for everyone, for the newbies and for the lazy, but worthless for everyone who cares about value/rarity/uniqueness/coolness.
**There are still some cool rare and even unique items possible to be found, a small group of skins which doesn't have common inscribable versions. Something to go for after you got all the cheap easy stuff, it's called vanity.
**The existing inscribable versions of those Tyrian/Canthan/FoW/UW weapons make great valuable rewards for achievements in the form of End of Elite areas reward chests, Hall of Heroes Chest and Zaishen Chest. If they changed the common drops to inscribables those rewards wouldn't be any special anymore, they would suck as much as getting a Nightfall skin from Zaishen chest sucks now!
**Occassional unusual combinations of mods that can't be copied can still be found in Tyria/Cantha, removing the possibility of them dropping would greatly increase the value of existing ones and would further move the economy into the state of 'old stuff = the money', 'new stuff = common merch food'.
**PvE only items such as shields with +Armor vs mobtype or weapon mods 'of mobtype-slaying' drop only in the non-inscribables lands (1 exception is 'of Deathbane' mod appearing everywhere).
**Having inscribables as common drops everywhere would hurt the PvP players as their rewards wouldn't be any special, Zaishen Key prices would drop lower than Lockpick price... The fact some skins values are protected by having their mass farmable copies not inscribable makes the inscribables a worthwhile valuable rewards.
**... this could go long and long on ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Now... there's nothing wrong to have a bunch of skins worth something?
So... which skins can't be found inscribed? It's not like after the release of Nightfall, when Factions unique skins where still unique and never inscribed. Now all skins can be found inscribed. And Prophecies has lost most of his unique skins, they have become 'core' by dropping in all campaigns.
Bu even if you can find all skins inscribed already, that's not the problem. The thing it's the difference between playing in one region and another.

Your whole huge post is so bad I can't just respond to every utter nonsense that is there.
You want a complete list of skins that are still worth something?
Also, stop with that "core" nonsense, you can't just say something is "core" and something is not. There are some basic common skins that just drop everywhere but they don't matter, they will never be of any value except when found in Tyria/Cantha with a combination of mods that's not possible to copy.
And one most important fact you miss despite me repeating that all the time in this thread - the fact there are inscribable versions for (almost) all skins doesn't automatically kill their value! The key is balance and in their cases Anet did it right - the inscribable versions are RARE while the farmable ones are not! This coexistance of both systems in a good balance makes those skins still valuable, both perfect noninscribables and the limited inscribables.
Balance is good. Making everything equally common is bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by seut

That inscriptions killed rarity is a misconception. Dead Sword were rare and sold for high price until farmers found an exploitable quest. Colossal Scimitars and Elemental Swords were rare until the introduction of Hardmode.

Farmers & Hardmode killed the rarity market not inscriptions!

It's both inscriptions and hardmode uber droprates, they're both the rarity killers. Without inscriptions the damage done by hardmode overfarm would be far smaller. And the existance of hardmode and the ease of farming and/or chestrunning HM Tyria / Cantha / FoW / UW is the exact reason why those areas should remain inscription free.

Snow Bunny · Feb 13, 2008, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undivine

The good ol' days were good for various reasons, but the weapon price wars were not one of them.

I enjoyed them.

a 15^50 drop meant some plat in your storage, whereas now it doesn't mean anything.

MithranArkanere · Feb 13, 2008, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanyatta

Will you please give up on the God damned "But it be faster!!!!!!" argument. You have lost that one 50x over.

What you're lobbying for is "easier", because the facts are, it is HARDER to get a perfect inherent mod w/o inscriptions, thus meaning it is EASIER w/inscriptions.

Basically, the general consensus of the community is no, inscriptions are not good for the game.

Game. Set. Match.

Poll, unless you bring all your 'friends' to vote here or something like that, says the opposite.

It's just that I'm the only one to stand so many nonsense trying to make you understand. They call it 'patience'. I have planety. I can wait years until they make what it needs to be made.

Since I started playing Factions I waited for somerhing like the insignia and the inscriptions and they added it (although some people told me that it would never happen, that it would 'destroy' the market or some nonsense like that)

Those drops ARE core.

What is Core? Something that can be obtained in all 3 campaigns or something that drops present in the Realm of the Gods. Like core skills and skins.
It's general consensus.

Yeah, there are a lot of stuff, but there are no unique Prophecies skins and unique factions skins can be found inscribed only in elite end-game maps.
That's an illogic inequitableness, like the not having NPCs to statr missions in Prophecies and Factions.

You alrady know the drill, but if someone that has played Nightfall and FEotN before, they would have get used to 'talk to start'. Then, they start in pre-Searing... talk to Start with Sir Tydus like in Nightfall and EotN, and when they get to The Wall, some people think 'What have I done wrong?' until they notice the Start button.

Guild Wars is a game, and so, its system must be homogeneous in all campaigns.
Imagine that you have to Click to Move in Prophecies, Use the Arrows in Factions and use the WADS in Nightfall.
Nonsense, isn't it?
Drops are the same. It's a system, a basic Guild Wars system, it's not like rewards or Heroes or monsters or available skills or skins, that can change, it's the intuitive environment the players get used to, and you can't have so huge differences between campaigns, and that's why the updated armors to insignia, and that's why they must update weapons too.

It's a system, the new core system, and so it must be present in all campaigns in a general way.

Single gold drops being paid for more than 100k it's not a logicl reason to maintain an illogic inequitableness.

Lukas · Feb 13, 2008, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Erm , personally I think that prophecies and factions could drop some inscribables, but they would still have to be rareish .

You can't see me · Feb 13, 2008, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

I enjoyed them.

a 15^50 drop meant some plat in your storage, whereas now it doesn't mean anything.

God forbid you rely on more than blind luck now-a-days for "Plat in your storage".

The Inscription system was a major improvement. Why do you think it was implemented into nightfall versus the old system? The old system was far too much pure chance.

If it had not made things better, I doubt Arenanet would have made the next implementations with inscribable weapons, these being Eye of the North and The Bonus Mission Pack.

I think this poll has given us a fairly good idea of how this goes. More people agree than disagree, they just don't want to post because they fear being chewed out by the people who drive the stereotype "Elitist". Or they are just too lazy.

Personally, I prefer +1's, but whatever.

Cale Roughstar · Feb 13, 2008, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Things are good the way they are. People who need good weps cheap (for themselves or heroes) can get them with inscribable items, and people like me who want "leet" items, can get them in the form of tyrian or canthan items.

Yawgmoth · Feb 13, 2008, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Since I started playing Factions I waited for somerhing like the insignia and the inscriptions and they added it (although some people told me that it would never happen, that it would 'destroy' the market or some nonsense like that)

Those drops ARE core.

What is Core? Something that can be obtained in all 3 campaigns or something that drops present in the Realm of the Gods. Like core skills and skins.
It's general consensus.

And there's no such thing as a core drop. This term cannot be used to describe a weapon drop, like stuff like dyes, skill tomes, lockpicks etc. which are core as they drop in all campagins equally. Weapon drops differ between campagins, you won't find a Mursaat Hammer anywhere but in Tyria, you won't find a Demonslaying mod anywhere but in Cantha, etc.

Zaishen Chest is definately a 'core' feature but it drops a lot of different skins exclusive to just one campagin. That doesn't make them 'core'.

And inscriptions aren't core, best proof is UW and FoW where common drops are not inscribable, only the end chest drops are (which was a the best design decision at this point, anything else would be bad)

So stop with the 'core' arguments, they don't make any sense, they are just a proof you got no idea about what you're talking about.

Quote:

Yeah, there are a lot of stuff, but there are no unique Prophecies skins and unique factions skins can be found inscribed only in elite end-game maps.
That's an illogic inequitableness, like the not having NPCs to statr missions in Prophecies and Factions.

There are unique Prophecies skins - Mursaat Hammer and Mursaat Hornbow, Magmas Shield is a Prophecies skin too (with a small exceptional chance of it dropping in NF under very specific circumstances)
And yes it's exactly like not having NPC to start missions - realize that they're different games! There are many people that enjoy the fact Prophecies is so open-ended with no closed gates other campagins got. Maybe you want retroactively implementing such gates just because they are in newest games? Using your (terribad) reasoning it's "an illogic inequitableness" aswell!

Quote:

Guild Wars is a game, and so, its system must be homogeneous in all campaigns.
Imagine that you have to Click to Move in Prophecies, Use the Arrows in Factions and use the WADS in Nightfall.
Nonsense, isn't it?
Drops are the same. It's a system, a basic Guild Wars system, it's not like rewards or Heroes or monsters or available skills or skins, that can change, it's the intuitive environment the players get used to, and you can't have so huge differences between campaigns, and that's why the updated armors to insignia, and that's why they must update weapons too.

Very false statement. Guild Wars isn't one game but 3 different separate stand-alone games. They have different features and many of the differences will never be changed. And some just shouldn't be.
Drops can't be compared to things like game controls, not even to the update of old armors. Reasons should be obvious for anyone with at least half a brain.
Very dumb comparisons indeed.

I really hope that the devs do know that a large and significant portion of the community (be it 50% or 10%, doesn't matter, it's definately a large group) is totally against messing with their drops, against dumb pointless changes like this, against the whole new system which is bad for the game, and that they just prefer their old favorite games to remain untouched.

Kanyatta · Feb 13, 2008, 09:57 PM // 21:57

To say this poll shows the general consensus of the community is laughable. How can <50 people give you an idea of where people stand on the issue?

The economy has been forever destroyed by inscriptions. Weapons can now be obtained for stupidly cheap prices, which sucks a lot of fun from the game. Now, any B.S. player can get a perfect weapon, whereas with the old system, you at least had to spend time getting gold, or get it from a drop (which was not a very good chance at all).

Basically,

Inscriptions System = Buffs for noobs

Old System = Some amount of skill/time is required to get decent weapons.

You can't see me · Feb 13, 2008, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanyatta

To say this poll shows the general consensus of the community is laughable. How can <50 people give you an idea of where people stand on the issue?

The economy has been forever destroyed by inscriptions. Weapons can now be obtained for stupidly cheap prices, which sucks a lot of fun from the game. Now, any B.S. player can get a perfect weapon, whereas with the old system, you at least had to spend time getting gold, or get it from a drop (which was not a very good chance at all).

Basically,

Inscriptions System = Buffs for noobs

Old System = Some amount of skill/time is required to get decent weapons.

Ever heard of sample surveying?

Businesses use this all the time determine the consumer report on a question the company wants to ask without surveying the entire population. They take anywhere from 50-100 people and ask them the question. Normally, it works, unless those people are all linked by ethnicity, groups, etc. Last time I checked, a lot of people on here were unlinked. The vocal part of the community of Guild Wars can stand as this sample surveying. We see the result. Those who are not vocal pay that price. If their opinion is not known, it won't count for anything in decision making. That's how a small number shows you.

Simple chance. If you flip a coin 10 times, the probability is that it will be heads 50% of the time. Even if you flip it many more times, it will still be a fifty fifty ratio. Same will often prove true for a small sample of a group as we see here.

Now, if you want to argue about how large businesses handle things that work very well as a marketing tool, you go right ahead.

And by the way, your little equasion is flawed, as luck of drops requires no skill, and in many cases, no time.

MithranArkanere · Feb 13, 2008, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Less than 100k it's not a cheap price. It's a normal price.

It's the price always meant to be. The 100k limit ingold for trades was not there as a mere

Yet still there are inscribed drops that are sold for more than 100k.

The inscritptionsystem removed a fixed variable property like Insigniad did with armors. Yet there are still drops with fixed properties, like the Fiery Dragon Swords. Such variables are perfectly logical to be kept fixed to the item. But not things like +15% damage or +5 energy, they are variable between drops, and so, they must be replaceable with other variable properties.

Inscriptions do NOT make all items drop max damage req9. And you put it like they do.

I've been lately farming for Glacial Stones before the Canthan Festival to pay some tickets, and I found that not more than 10% of the gold drops where req9 and perfect, and none of them where 'rare' skins, they were all skins you may find in the PvP item creation panel and in collectors.

10% and rare skins being still rare makes much more sense than... 0,001% and rare skins being pure crap most of the time.

The only SKILL that is related to weapons is in CHOOSING the right combinations, not in getting them. Maybe most people would choose the typical ones, but with weapon upgrade traders we would make sure they have to pay or wait for that.

One good example is Fronis Dungeon. Which one is the bes inscription there? +15% -5Energy. With inscriptions, you can get one of those once in a while. Without them, you'll have to wait until you find someone that not only saves 15^50% and +5 energy ones.

Choice in upgrades it's something that should be a matter only of the user of the item, not the sller of the item, just like with armor.

HawkofStorms · Feb 13, 2008, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by You can't see me

Ever heard of sample surveying?

Businesses use this all the time determine the consumer report on a question the company wants to ask without surveying the entire population. They take anywhere from 50-100 people and ask them the question. Normally, it works, unless those people are all linked by ethnicity, groups, etc. Last time I checked, a lot of people on here were unlinked. The vocal part of the community of Guild Wars can stand as this sample surveying. We see the result. Those who are not vocal pay that price. If their opinion is not known, it won't count for anything in decision making. That's how a small number shows you.

Simple chance. If you flip a coin 10 times, the probability is that it will be heads 50% of the time. Even if you flip it many more times, it will still be a fifty fifty ratio. Same will often prove true for a small sample of a group as we see here.

Now, if you want to argue about how large businesses handle things that work very well as a marketing tool, you go right ahead.

And by the way, your little equasion is flawed, as luck of drops requires no skill, and in many cases, no time.

Agreed. Also keep in mind that the poll has only been up for ~24 hours. It will get more votes.

Anyway, the poll shows the general concensus is very split on worldwide inscriptions, which everybody who pays attention to these forums arleady knew anyway. 22 for, 20 against.